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The Tenth

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I am going to delete all the dumb, aspergers worthy discussion threads.

this is not the place for talking about butts and farts and shrimp. take that to your plurk or rpanons.

"No kidding. This breach of privacy can be argued on the fact that the people posting the caps were given permission to be in the private links. So the fault isn't on Anticirclejerk or the ACJ mod, but the component that decided to make the screencap." - Anon

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IF YOU COMPARE THIS COMMUNITY TO CYBERBULLYING, YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT. HTH.

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Look, headcanon is all and good, but in the original Japanese, they use the exact same word for what happens to the Moon Princess and the rest of the Senshi, IRRC.

Reincarnation just means that you have the same soul (especially in the Sailor Moon verse) - Everything else is optional.

And all the reincarnated version don't have the same personalities as in their past lives in all three canons (Manga, anime, Live action)

I don't really get what you're objecting to, though? The only "headcanon" I've mentioned is actually just an opinion whether the personalities from the past and the present are the same or not, from what little is showed in the canons about the past I don't really see many differences except for Usagi and Kunzite (live action only) and it's based on that where I said they had the same personalities. You can disagree but I don't think you can deny that what we are shown of the past lives of most of the characters differs from the present ones except in the cases I've mentioned.

Regarding the word used in the original Japanese, back in my first tag about this I said: I bold the reborn part because it's not the same as a reincarnation as far as I understand it. And I hold my ground on that, for me, it's more a rebirth than a reincarnation though really, at the end of the day, whether they were all reborn or reincarnated the situation in general stays the same. As you yourself have said reincarnation means that you have the same soul, anything else gained from it is "optional", being reborn also means that they have the same soul but it's strictly that without any optional extras.

And I hold my ground on that, for me,

FOR ME

Look, headcanon.

Honestly, it's up for personal interpretation whether it's "rebirth" or "reincarnation" and I think telling people how they must read ambiguous canon is a bit pretentious, anon.

I never denied it being headcanon. I always stated clearly that it was MY opinion. Neither I denied it being "headcanon".

So, once more, wtf are you complaining about besides that I bothered to explain things other anons were asking about? Or do you mean that since I do have a personal opinion about this I shouldn't have said a word?

And yes I repeated myself up there, that's how much I don't get why you are complaining /facepalm at self there

I think you're confusing me for the other anon, because that above comment was the first time I posted to this thread.

I'm just saying that you're presenting your interpretation as canon fact and getting huffy when people point that out. The fact remains that your interpretation is YOUR INTERPRETATION and should be stated as such.

I'm sorry if I'm confusing you with another anon. But, again, I don't think I've ever said "THIS IS CANON GUYS" I've stated several times that it was indeed MY INTERPRETATION, and I don't see why you're saying I've done otherwise. I'm "getting huffy" because at least two people are assuming that I've said things I haven't. Seriously, please, quote me for where I'm saying that what I've said is a "canon fact" and not "my interpretation", because that's what you're accusing me of doing, yet the only thing you quoted was, precisely, a part where I said that it was, indeed, my own interpretation.

actually isn't reincarnation and rebirth the same thing? c/p from wikipedia

Rebirth may refer to:

Spiritual

Reincarnation, the migration of a deceased person's spirit to a newborn body
Rebirth (Buddhism)

I think, from a Western point of view, they pretty much are. I don't claim to know all Eastern traditions, but some of them do have the distinction between the two, with reincarnation being another incarnation of the same being (as in, they are same person, new body) and rebirth meaning they've been reborn (same spiritual force -although not always called a soul here-, new body). Being reborn doesn't always make one the same person as before, whereas with reincarnation they pretty much are.

i see, thanks for the clarification now i get what they are arguing about

Um, no.

Rebirth and reincarnation are pretty much interchangeble in most of the Eastern traditions that I know of, too.

In which case those two up there are just bitching over semantics.

I think the one anon just isn't happy the other was explaining things using their own personal interpretation because it means they are telling us what to think.

That's what I object to, personally. That is one explanation for it, yeah, but it's not the only interpretation, and anon is presenting it as though it's Word of God canon fact.

If there's another explanation how about you illustrate us as well with the other interpretations or with the "real Word of God canon fact" if you know it? No one is saying only that anon can try to explain things but they are so far the only one who has bothered to do so. Reading you two it seems the only thing you disagree in is if it's "rebirth" or "reincarnation" and the anon that explained things did say they personally thought that to be reborn was different from being reincarnated.

Honestly it feels as if you two are just arguing for the sake of it because as far as I know you need to be born (or reborn) in order to reincarnate, so it's the same shit.

To my understanding of things, explanation!anon is adding explanation that isn't necessary unless it's actually correct. Which is why there couldn't be anything else to offer: if you think reincarnation and rebirth are "the same shit", then Usagi would be no different from the other sailors in terms of relation to past self. That's what I've always thought of it as. What is there to explain? I don't see strong evidence that her memories worked differently from the others. She gains a lot of different memories of the past life once she's revealed as the princess. (Also, that discussion of Serenity's hair? There's no "really?" from Usagi. She doesn't say anything to Venus' comment. Other details in the argument stuck out as erroneous too.)

PGSM does make those identities separate, but PGSM does a lot of things different. Going by manga & anime only I don't see the need to make them separate people. Instead it muddles the original Queen Serenity's actions if she tried to give her daughter another life, except the new life isn't her daughter while everyone else is, and this is by design. From her wish, Usagi should = Princess Serenity, the same way everyone else = their past lives. Just in a different situation. I don't see a blatant personality change in the moon flashbacks.

But what sticks out most for me is how Usagi identifies herself in the conclusion. Explanation!anon claimed that Sailor Moon is always Usagi. Which I agree with! But Sailor Moon states she is both Sailor Moon and Princess Serenity.

http://mangafox.me/manga/sailor_moon/v03/c013/46.html

So if Sailor Moon == Princess Serenity in the manga, by Sailor Moon's words, doesn't it follow Usagi == Princess Serenity? At least for manga. She does have some identity crisis in the chapter following the princess reveal, but I think it's understandable in the stress of everything changing suddenly.

Even making that case, I think the headcanon/canon thing should be let go, since the thread slid from talking about how Usagi isn't in charge of the Princess' actions, which is PGSM canon, to her identity across all the mediums, and some wires may have gotten crossed in the transition.

The idea that the senshi/civilian identities are entirely different people is ONLY in PGSM. Blurring the lines between anime and manga is one thing, but PGSM is such a very different thing that it shouldn't be allowed to bleed, IMHO.

I don't agree with this. In PGSM Mercury is still the same as Ami, Mars is the same as Rei and so on. The only one who is different is PRINCESS Sailor Moon, you know when she transforms in a fancy senshi outfit with a crown and all. Only that one is a different person from normal Usagi/Sailor Moon.

Anyway this just makes it worse with Waterfell because she uses PGSM as the base for all her canon knowledge (seriously talk with her and she will mention PGSM scenes before thinking of the manga or the anime), yet she insists in that they all are the same even across AUs and what not. I just cringe every time I see her throw her character at manga/anime senshi and treats them right from the start as if they were the PGSM versions and expects them to act the same and if they don't (because there are things the PGSM girls have that the others don't, the same is true the other way around) she complains and calls them OOC or metagames and forces things be her way.

To my understanding, Princess Serenity and Usagi while quintessentially the same, are different in many areas at least specifically in the anime.

In the anime we constantly hear about how "graceful, elegant, kind, etc." she was. We actually have villains in the first season look at Usagi and go "well, she can't be the princess because LOOK AT HER! Look at the differences!" So I think, this is where it's more or less a reincarnation. Same soul, same core values but different personalities because, let's be perfectly honest, Usagi was raised by different people in a completely different era.

So in that sense, both manga and anime Usagi ARE different from Princess Serenity. And yes, she IS princess Serenity but it's a past life sort of deal. She knows who she was before being reborn/reincarnated but she's still different. If nothing else, a major difference is being human vs. lunarian. So on that level, she sort of HAS to be a different person because the main issue was "Humans and Lunarians cannot intermingle." (Of course, this gets thrown out the flipping window when in the manga in the first season when Luna goes "Alright Usagi, you've rebuilt the moon kingdom, you need to come back as it's ruler now.")

So I think you kind of have to look at is as "They're the same yet different" (which I know isn't helpful, sorry ^^; ). Because even though they're the same where it counts, they ARE different people in the sense of Usagi being reborn/reincarnated, having a different personality, different desires, and just a different upbringing.

The same can be said for all the senshi because (whether anime or manga) they had their lives in the past of the Silver Millennium, they have new lives in the modern age. Although we get a hint that the Outer Senshi are more or less the same from their past lives selves, they still aren't the same people. They all get a chance to live together and be happy together, something that they couldn't do in their past lives.

It's again, unfortunately, the "same yet different."

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The Tenth

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